with Casey Jacox, Best-Selling Author and Host of The Quarterback Dadcast.
In staffing sales, everyone claims to value relationships — but too often, the chase for quick wins takes over. This episode of Staffing Made Simple digs into what it really means to move beyond being “just another vendor.” It explores why clients can sense when your outreach is transactional, how to shift from chasing recs to earning trust, and what separates sales reps who get ignored from those who get invited to the table.
Joining our hosts, Casey Wagonfield and Rob Geist, for this conversation is Casey Jacox, bestselling author of “Win the Relationship, Not the Deal,” and host of “The Quarterback Dadcast.” Drawing on his experience as a top national staffing salesperson, Casey shares how leading with service, consistency, and genuine curiosity builds lasting business partnerships. Whether you’re an account manager, recruiter, or sales leader, this episode will challenge how you think about success — and help you refocus on relationships that drive real results.
Casey Wagonfield: In staffing sales, everyone says they’re about building relationships, but if we’re being honest, a lot of salespeople still act like deal chasers. They’re pushing too hard, over-promising, sending follow-ups that sound more like spam than service. And the problem is that clients notice; they can tell when you’re in it for the quick win versus when you’re in it to build something real.
And that’s what this episode is all about. How to stop just being another vendor and start becoming a true partner. We’re breaking down principles behind building trust, setting the right expectations, showing up consistently, and actually listening, instead of just hearing. If you’ve ever wondered why some reps get ignored while others get invited to the table, this episode’s going to hit home.
Welcome back to another episode of Staffing Made Simple, presented by SimpleVMS, the most vendor-friendly VMS on the market today. I’m your host, Casey Wagonfield.
Here’s the deal. Our industry moves really fast. Everybody’s chasing recs, chasing activities, chasing the scoreboard. And don’t get me wrong, I get it. We’ve all got numbers to hit. But at some point, you’ve got to stop and ask, “Am I just trying to win the next deal? Or am I actually building relationships that are going to last?”
And I’ll be honest, I’ve fallen into the trap myself – Head down, grinding, trying to get wins on the board. But the longer I’ve been in staffing, the more I’ve realized that the reps who really stand out are not the ones who just get lucky on a few job orders.
They’re the ones that clients trust; the ones who show up consistently, even when they’re not asking for something.
And that’s why I’m pumped about today. We’ve got a guest who’s not only lived this out but has turned it into a framework that anybody can use. But before we bring him in, let me introduce my co-host, Senior Vice President at SimpleVMS, Rob Geist, who I’m sure is also excited about this episode being a sales leader himself.
Rob Geist: Absolutely, Casey, you nailed it. Everyone says that they care about relationships more than anything else in sales, but most people are driven by their leadership to get those short-term deals. How do you close something right now? That mindset. That’s why I’m excited to have our guest today.
He became an all-time leading salesperson at a large national staffing firm, and he did it by building relationships and focusing on trust and service over transactions. He’s taken those lessons and written a book called Win the Relationship, Not the Deal, and now he helps salespeople rethink how they show up.
He’s also the host of the Quarterback Dadcast, which has aired over 300 podcasts. Each episode offers practical takeaways to become an ultimate quarterback and leader in your home. So, with that, I’ll introduce Casey Jacox. Welcome to the podcast.
Casey Jacox: I’m grateful to be here. I appreciate the kind intro, Rob and Case. It was nice finally meeting you guys at the AS group conference last year. And, Casey, thank you for being a guest on my podcast that’ll be airing pretty soon. I’m excited for everyone to learn more about you, the dad.
Casey Wagonfield: Yeah, that was an awesome time. I appreciate that. And I know we’re going to dig into the book. But before we do that, and I know a lot of listeners, especially people in staffing know who you are, Casey, but I’m sure there are people who don’t. So, I wanted to set the stage for them.
You’re not just some guy who wrote a book. You’ve had an insanely successful sales career, and you did it differently from most. So, for those folks who don’t know who you are, can you walk us through your staffing journey?
Casey Jacox: You bet. So, I started in 2000 for a company called Hall Kinion. Hall Kinion was purchased by Kforce in June of 2004. I started as a contract hourly salesperson, which is really a silly decision to make, but I did it because…I call this the Division Two mindset.
People who played sports at Division Two, you always kind of have a chip on your shoulder where you’re trying to prove to others that maybe you got a little bit more fight the dog, but I literally was working for a barcoding labeling software company, and my best friend, a guy named Kelly Hanson, who is still in staffing, he convinced me to come try to interview at this place called Hall Kinion.
I really didn’t understand what staffing was. I was like, wait a minute, so there are these contractors and your pay rate and your bill rate. It was just so foreign to me. I interviewed nine times and finally got the job as a contract salesperson, and they said, “It’s probably going to take six to nine months for you to become a full-time employee.”
Which I was like, another challenge. Here we go. Let’s go. And, three months later, they made me a full-time employee. And then, I had some amazing training at Hall Kinion, amazing training at Kforce, and just got surrounded by really great people, great teammates, great clients.
I spent 20 years there, and at the end of my career, I was working with one large customer. And I think that the transition from staffing to services around understanding what professional services are and SOW work was a very fun journey to go through.
But the idea of the book actually came, probably about 2012, 2013, when I was literally training some people. And that’s where the mindset of winning people really got clear. And then this became kind of a saying internally. And sometimes my buddies would give me a hard time, but to me, I was so passionate about it because, in the end, if you win people…
That’s what really led me to have continued success at Kforce. And I was grateful to be our number one rep 10 years straight before I moved to an executive role and trained others how to do it.
And the journey I’m on now, gentlemen, is something I really didn’t mean to do. I knew I meant to write a book and meant to start a podcast, but I did not mean to get into executive coaching performance work. I did not mean to become a speaker, but it is a full-on calling. It’s fun when you have experienced a lot to be able to share with others.
I’m jealous I get to share a lot of the stuff with my clients who are much younger than me, because I wish I had talked to somebody who was like me when I was 23. And the book is not like, let me tell you how great I am. It’s more about letting me tell you where I sucked and letting me tell you where I struggled. And letting me tell you what works and what doesn’t work based on my experience. These are the things that I found to be successful more often than not.
Rob Geist: I love it, Casey. You and I have a lot of similarities, and I really picked that up in reading the book, and I do think it’s important to talk about your flaws and your weaknesses as much as toot your own horn.
But in the first chapter of the book, you talk about the golden rule: Always treat people the way they want to be treated. That sounds simple, but I’ve seen salespeople struggle with that. How do you figure out in a world where everyone’s so different and they all have different styles, how to present yourself to different people?
Casey Jacox: Well, two things come to mind. One, whenever I talk about my college football days, I have to give love to Uncle Rico and make fun of myself there. But to me, it’s like a quarterback. When I enter the huddle, I got to bring positive energy. Same thing with a salesperson.
You’ve got to bring positive energy. If you want your recruiting team to work hard, you want your sales team to work hard; people want to be around people who are positive.
The other thing around treating people the way you want to be treated that really hit home was when my first leader, before I got into staffing, asked me a question. He goes, “Do you want to be right, or do you want to get what you want? What’s more important?” And that piece of advice was so valuable for me in my staffing journey because it’s too often than not people in staffing, I’m sure this will speak to you when you get a recruiter or tell you, “Oh my God, I have the perfect candidate.”
Well, how do you know Mr. and Mrs. Recruiter? How do we know? So, slowing someone down to say, “Listen, I know you want the deal. I want the deal. But we have to help make it the client’s idea. We have to make it the candidate’s idea, because if we try to close anybody, they’re going to resist us.
So why don’t we ask great questions? Tell great stories about how we can help them. And then they’re going to be the ones who close themselves. And so, I think that was a mindset I had to change and adopt throughout that journey.
I think the staffing industry, I mean this kind of sarcastically, but truth to it, it’s the blame game industry. It’s I like to blame recruiting. Recruiting likes to blame sales. I like to blame the market. I like to blame my client.
Versus, there are 23-something odd thousand staffing companies out there. Why do we have to argue with each other internally? Let’s just treat each other with respect. Let’s create an optimistic environment. And I’m going to show up knowing that you’re not waking up thinking, “Man, I can’t wait to get beat. I can’t wait to send you crappy candidates. I can’t wait to have my client lose budget.” I mean, no one’s thinking these things.
So, the time we waste going down this rabbit hole when things don’t go the right way, I think that’s why I really tried to start out of the gate with just bring positive energy and intent. If you don’t know how to work with somebody, well, maybe it’s on you, Mr. and Mrs. Seller, or Mr. and Mrs. Recruiter. Maybe we’re not asking the right questions to meet someone where they are, understand what motivates them, and what drives them.
Casey Wagonfield: Yeah, I think positivity, just in general, that’s why we have such a great culture at Simple, right?
It is a positive culture. That’s why people love working here, and truly why companies love working with us. We used to hear that at any conference we go to, we were at CWS last year, and you know, global companies had stopped by our booth a few different times to talk with us, because they just liked us, right?
They’re like, you guys are fun. We want to work with you guys. It wasn’t a match for us just based on the footprint, but they’re like, you know, we know people, and we’re going to make introductions, and we’re cheering for you. But that would’ve never happened if we weren’t just being positive and engaging with them.
So, it goes a long way.
Casey Jacox: It does. Yeah.
Rob Geist: Absolutely. One of my favorite compliments I’ve gotten in sales meetings at times, you know, after you’ve called somebody and you finally get to the boardroom with them, and they say, “Man, thank you for being persistent, but not pesty.” And I think that there’s a really intricate balance there.
It’s easy to go overboard with follow-ups because many of us are taught that activity equals results. How do you balance hustle with respecting someone else’s buying cycle?
Casey Jacox: Yeah, I got one very similar, Rob. Mine was: Your persistence has reached diligence, not annoyance.
So, I think follow-up is a very good thing to talk about because most salespeople are not good at it. Most salespeople are following up for what he or she wants. And so, what I learned is the art of using what I call third-person storytelling. So, my follow-up is always using language that the customer told me or the target told me.
So, like if you guys said, “Hey, Case, sorry, keep calling me at the wrong time. Tell me when would be a better time to reach out to you.” “Call me next week.” “Hey, Casey and Rob, it’s Casey with ABC company. I want to follow up. Per your advice, you told me to call you at 2:00 PM on Thursday. Is now a good time?”
So, I think when that’s done enough, when you’re using the customer’s words on when you’re supposed to be doing what you’re supposed to be doing, or if you’re asking questions that are important to them because you generated some kind of conversation. I’ve found, over time, that works a lot better than just, “Hey, it’s Casey with ABC company. I’m just calling to check in.”
I used to always joke with people, that’s code for wasting your time, because I don’t know what else to talk about. But if I’m calling with a purpose, either something they said, something I saw on the news, something I saw on LinkedIn, something I saw about their business, something I know that has impacted their industry that they might find value in. If I use it in a question when following up, I found that it usually can lead to better conversations versus me just selling like everybody else.
Casey Wagonfield: Yeah. And it’s funny you say that because when you think about salespeople reaching out, to your point, and always asking for something, right?
I’ve always been a fan of, not every email has to be a withdrawal, where you ask for something. You can be a resource where you provide something to them without asking for anything. And those are the things that they’re going to remember, because you’re going out of your way.
I used to tell people, send them a wage analysis. They’re always hiring machine operators. Send them a wage analysis that breaks down the wage rates for a machine operator so they can see how they are against their competitors in that market. You’re not asking for anything, but you’re providing a resource for them.
Casey Jacox: Yeah. I think so often, people don’t slow down to think about those things. Too many people do things like everybody else, but when we slow down and do things that are uncommon, it can totally change the outcome of how that relationship might be formed.
Casey Wagonfield: And in the next chapter, you talk about expectations, which is something a lot of salespeople get wrong. And I think a lot of that just comes down to wanting to get the sale right and missing some of those expectations they should be setting.
Is there an example you can share from your career where not setting expectations or setting expectations the wrong way cost you?
Yeah, actually, there’s a spot in the book where I talk about not following up when I was supposed to follow up. And I remember a time when I knew I didn’t remember to do it. It was really early in my career, which is why I learned to fall in love with the CRM and the activity function of it.
But I remember calling the customer, and I said, “Hey, it’s Casey with, I think it was Hall Kinion at the time, and he goes, “Yeah, you were supposed to follow up with me last week.” It was crickets. I was like, “Oh God, this is embarrassing.” He’s like, “I actually gave the business to your competitor, but hey, thanks for following up a week late.”
So, he was kind of an a-hole about it, but I deserved it. That’s why following up, “Hey, it’s Casey with da, da da. I’m following up per your advice around project ABC that you talked about. Is now a good time?”
Again, it’s not going to work every single time, but I think expectations are one of those simple things that we just don’t slow down and think about.
Like, even set expectations for the candidate: Where to park, what to expect, what the team’s like, where the manager went to college, what he or she likes. How about even when you finally got that client to call you back to give you three project manager positions, and you’re not finding anybody? So, now it’s quick to blame the recruiting team.
Well, God, I did my part, I got my job. Versus, well, maybe you didn’t. Maybe there are other questions you can be asking your client to make the life of your recruiting team easier. Maybe you can go out of your way to say, “Hey, tell me, is there anything I can do to help you with your search string? Do you need anything from me?”
Maybe then setting expectations with a client by saying, “Hey, Mr. and Mrs. Client, I just want to call to let you know that we’re working really hard. We’ve called X amount of people. We’ve already screened out 15 of them. Tell me: what are you seeing from your side? I just want to set your expectations about where we’re at.”
Now, I used to get pushback internally on that one, but I thought, again, I want to win a person. I know how I would like to be communicated with, and some is a lot better than none.
So sometimes just by following up and setting their expectations of what we’re finding, what’s struggling, and what’s not. Because sometimes they’d say there’s no one available, the rate’s too high, the rate’s too low, you’re not going to find anybody.
If I led with that. Now I say, “Hey, it’s Casey with ABC company. I’m calling to say we’re not finding anybody. I think your rate’s too low.” Then you walk yourself right into, “Oh, really? Because your competitors have given me five people, and I have interviews next week with them.” Now, what am I going to say?
Casey Wagonfield: So, I’ve seen salespeople who do that, right? They go in and accept a job order knowing that their recruiters can’t fill it, and rather than setting those expectations of, “Hey, this isn’t what we specialize in, we’ll give a stab at it. We’ll try to get some resumes for you.” But not over-promising and not delivering at all.
I’ve worked with people who’ve overpromised a company that we had a hundred forklift drivers ready to start tomorrow, and we didn’t have a hundred forklift drivers ready to start tomorrow, but it can come back to bite you.
Rob Geist: I don’t like excuses from salespeople. I’m a firm believer that when you mess up, you fess up. And I think you just get respect from that. So, another thing that is a challenge at times with salespeople, and Casey touched on it, is over-promising and under-delivering.
What happens when you do that, and how do you recover from that without losing a client?
Casey Jacox: This is where I’ve learned about the three superpowers of life, which are being humble, vulnerable, and curious. When I can lean into those emotional intelligence-based skills to say, “Hey, Mr. and Mrs. Client, based on our initial discovery call, I thought we were going to be able to do A, B, and C. It’s quickly becoming apparent we’re not. I just wanted to apologize and set your expectations. I know this might mean that you need to go to another vendor. That’s not my ideal situation, but I want you to have a good outcome. I want you to make sure your project gets done on time, whether it’s a hundred percent with me, 80% with me, or 20% with me. In the end, I want to make sure that you’re getting good service, honest communication, and clear expectations so that I’m setting myself up to help you, downstream.”
That’s how I would approach that. I would be willing, probably bet that’s more of an uncommon approach versus trying to convince ourselves that, oh no, we can do it. We just need another day. We just need another hour. We’ll find somebody.
And what you end up doing is just delaying the inevitable, because you’re never going to fill every single rec. You’re never going to fill every single job, but you can strive to win every single person by how you communicate with them.
You find out what’s important to them, how you follow up with them, and how you remember things about them. That’s a lot more realistic than winning every deal by winning more people.
Casey Wagonfield: In one of your chapters, you talk about listening to your prospects and your clients, and you make a clear distinction between actually hearing them and listening to them.
Maybe you can explain that: What’s the difference, and why do so many sellers get that wrong?
Casey Jacox: The most simplistic way to find out if you’re good at listening is how often, when you meet with a customer, you’re using phrases like: Tell me more about that. Describe why that’s important to you. Tell me what would happen if you didn’t achieve that, Mr. and Mrs. Customer.
If you’re someone who asks second, third, and fourth-level questions, I bet you’re a great listener. If you’re just like, what the hell’s he talking about, that probably means there’s a gap, and that’s okay.
It’s okay to say there’s a gap, but it’s not okay not to do anything about it. So, I would encourage you to realize that listening is a skill, and one way that proves that I’ve gotten better at listening is when I send a meeting recap after I meet with a client, and I tell them it’s coming, I’m going to articulate why I am sending a meeting recap.
So, I show you, the customer, that I listen to everything. I took down things that are important to you. I’m making sure that I’m following up with next steps based on things that you told me were important to you.
Because hearing is subconscious. I share a table in the book about subconscious listening behaviors and conscious listening behaviors, because we can hear if an airplane buzzes over, or we hear the fan in the other room, but listening requires us to be locked in.
No notifications. Put teams away. Put Zoom away. And asking follow-up questions, taking really good notes, either mentally or through AI or through your follow-up, because I’ve never met somebody that said, “Man, I don’t like that Casey guy at SimpleVMS. He’s a great listener.”
So, you want to get better at sales, be a better listener at home, be a better listener with your kids, be a better listener with your friends… and the better listeners are the ones who ask more questions versus the ones that keep talking the whole time about how they can help. Because I think when you go down that path, then you become like a common seller, which is you’re trying to close them, versus I want them to close themselves, because I’ve asked great questions, I’ve listened, I’ve told a story of how I can help them. Now they’re going to be the ones who close themselves.
Rob Geist: On that same topic of listening rather than hearing, do you have any personal anecdotes where a client didn’t say something directly, but you picked up on it, and it changed everything?
Casey Jacox: Yeah. This is like Vietnam flashbacks here, Rob. So, I appreciate you taking me down my pain level here. One of my worst moments in selling was at Hall Kinion. And I remember I was working with a healthcare provider; I won’t name them.
And they told me, this gentleman was going to introduce me to another group, and he said, “Yeah, just let them know that we’re working together. Now, what I heard is: so, I’m supporting you.
What I should have said was: Working together? What does that mean? How can I make sure I really articulate, because I want to make sure that he understands why I’m calling him? I didn’t do that. So, when I called this dude, he didn’t take my call. And then I emailed him.
How he read the email made it sound like I falsely articulated my role, as if I was pretending to be somebody who worked at the healthcare provider that did not work for a staffing company. And he thought I was trying to change the story, which was not at all what I was doing.
And so, the guy completely blackballed me. And the guy who introduced me went to bat for me. And we actually had a conversation one day, but he never once gave me an opportunity. Ever since then, because I didn’t slow down to ask one more question to say, “Hey, Susie, I’m working with Casey and Rob. We’re not really working together yet, but we’re working to build a partnership, and they’re looking for me to help them with A, B, and C. They thought it might be a good idea for us to meet based on the services our company provides.
So, just a little bit more contextuality. And because I didn’t do that, it backfired on me. I’ve had to live with that for the last 25 years. So, thank you for making me go down that path again.
Rob Geist: You always remember the ones you didn’t get, right? It’s just a curse of us being in sales,
Casey Jacox: I hope that there’s maybe a more seasoned seller or sales leader listening that can learn from either me openly saying why I once sucked, and still suck at times, because I think that’s what shapes our team culture, which is when we can remove fear and instill confidence in our teams. People can be their best version of themselves.
But I think that so often sales teams are chasing something that does not exist, which is called perfect. I have yet to meet the perfect seller or leader.
Casey Wagonfield: Yeah. When you talk about not listening, I think a lot of sellers do just go through the motions.
So, when they get a call and the client says, “Every other day, they call for another 10 people, right? And it’s just checking the box, and yeah, we’re going to fill it.” But maybe it’s not that they just need another 10 people, maybe it’s because their turnover’s horrible, and they can’t keep those same 10 people.
Those are the harder discussions you need to have with them as their staffing partner, versus just being an order taker.
Casey Jacox: Yeah. I think clients don’t want to be told what they’re doing wrong. And sometimes those are the internal conversations that you and your company have to have.
Is that the customer we want to work with? The amount of time that we’re investing in restaffing positions, because our client, maybe he or she’s just not a good person, or the environment just is not fun, regardless of how important that revenue is.
Those are tough questions to have. But if I were going to deliver feedback to a client, something like that, I would use a curiosity-based framework, and I would ask if they would be open to feedback they’ve received from some of our consultants who have worked for you.
I don’t know if this is just a one-off, Mr. and Mrs. Customer, but I would want to know this information. Tell me, would it be okay if I shared some feedback? I’m not saying they’re right, but I’d love to share it with you just to see if it is something you’ve heard from other companies or other consultants.
But if this is something on us and our discovery, then we try to figure out a better way to ask better questions, and we’ll do it. But at least we want to share it with you.
Rob Geist: In chapter four of the book, you talk about something which I’m better at now that I’m in leadership than I was when I was an actual, individual contributor.
But it’s always documenting everything and then following up. We talk about it a lot here at Simple with our team. Why do you think so many, even good sales reps, are resistant to documenting? The good sales reps are good at follow-up, but they might not document it, even though it’s such a simple differentiator.
Casey Jacox: I think it’s a mindset. I think it’s a lack of clarity from leadership to sellers. I think a good sales team, an elite sales team, understands the pain of not documenting. Kind of like the example I shared earlier: Because I did not document correctly and set the right follow-up activity, I lost revenue. That was pain that I did not want to go through again.
I think people who understand that CRMs are not just for my manager to have so he or she can tell me what I suck at or what I’m not doing right. It’s also for sellers. We can help our leaders be better at their jobs because now we can actually forecast better.
We have to understand where our pipeline is coming from. And so, if I understand that, oh my God, Casey’s got $66 million in pipeline. We have to make sure we support him, versus courting everything, not communicating everything, trying to fly the plane by yourself, or take on the football team by yourself.
You can’t do that. You have to rely on your team. And so, I think for me, people who embrace technology, let the technology manage you, versus you managing it. I used to joke, I said the day that the power went out was the day that I always get a little nervous, because all my follow-up was done. I didn’t know who to call.
If I had this activity list, I would go to work, and I’d open up my email on one computer. The other computer was just all my CRM activities, showing when I would have to call people. People used to joke and call me robotic, but I’d rather get called a robot and be more efficient than the person who’s a lazy, complacent, excuse maker.
But I think if you’re not using a CRM to your fullest, even just the most simplistic of when you get off the phone with somebody, make it their idea for when you’re going to call them back, and then just use their words when you call them back, because it makes it so much easier when you’re following up with people.
And I think most salespeople, that’s what they struggle with. They forget to do it the fourth, fifth time. It’s like, ah, maybe there’s no business here. Maybe there is, we are just not asking the right questions.
Casey Wagonfield: Right. And I think it just helps you remember where you left off.
Keep good notes so you know where you left off the last time. And with all the AI that they have out there, I mean, it’s taking notes for you, right? Just get it linked up to your ATS, and that’s something that I struggle with, and I’ve continued to work on and get better.
And Rob and I have talked about that because I came from staffing and overseeing salespeople who put notes in, and giving them a hard time about putting notes in. Rob’s like, yeah, so maybe we should have that conversation. So, you have to have that mentality to make sure it gets in there.
Rob Geist: I don’t think enough leaders tell their team that it’s not to micromanage them. It’s to help the team grow better. I think there’s a little bit of a disconnect at times with certain people in leadership, where if you just communicate that to people, sometimes you get better results from it.
Casey Wagonfield: Yeah, and Rob makes a good point on our sales calls, too. If you’re documenting everything in there, then you’re more coachable, right? If you’re making all these calls, but you’re not setting any appointments, maybe we need to work on your messaging?
Or if you’re setting all these appointments, but we’re not closing anything, maybe it’s your closing and your negotiating, and giving a demo?
Casey Jacox: Or maybe the leader asks more questions: “Hey team, tell me one or two reasons why using a CRM would help you, and tell me one or two reasons why CRM will not help you.”
Make them see both sides of it, and the six things I wrote about are things that I still work on to this day. I’m still not perfect at them. So, I think everybody can relearn these things, and when things aren’t going the right way, that’s where I think you lean back into curiosity. Everyone checks their ego, and usually, you can get back to the root of the problem.
Casey Wagonfield: Do you think over follow-up exists, or is it more just the quality of the follow-up?
Casey Jacox: I think the quality of follow-up. I have someone following up with me right now. I’m not going to name them, but they keep calling me to tell me they can help me write a book.
And they have all these reasons why they can help me write a book, and I want to help them so bad. But like, if you actually said, “Hey Casey, I know you’ve already written a book, but I think you’ve got a second book in you, and here are some things I want you to think about. That’s why I want to schedule time with you.”
But the fact that the person’s done zero homework, and I can tell I’m part of the automation follow-up. I’m not going to take the time to teach them, because until they want to figure it out themselves, it’s a waste of time.
Rob Geist: You talk about this in chapter five, which is something that I live by, and I really do try to be my authentic self. Why do you think so many sales reps feel like they have to play a role instead of just being themselves?
Casey Jacox: I think it actually can be a leadership challenge, because I think if the leaders don’t set the right environment where people can be their authentic selves, where it is celebrated to say, “Hey, I don’t know. I need some help.” Fear loves to hide, which I tell a lot of leaders I work with.
If you’re not inspecting that, it’s going to stay hidden. It breeds complacency, which turns into bad habits and ultimately lost revenue. I think the best environments are ones where practice is encouraged, where people can mess up in front of their team, have some fun, and learn together.
It’s not about locking everyone in a room for a two-hour role play where no one’s being themselves. It’s more like walking down the hall and saying, “Hey Rob, what would you say if a customer said this?” You’re trying to catch people off guard, just like what happens in the real world.
So, if we can create those same types of moments that are going to happen when they happen live, then we increase the chance of having a better outcome. I think the reason why ego and practice are so important to me is, when I played football in college, my coach made me practice every day. He wouldn’t let me just show up on Saturdays and play.
And when I go watch my beloved Seattle Mariners, they still make them take batting practice. And our pilots: They still got to go practice and go through recurring training. And doctors – they have to stay current. But yet, we in staffing, we’re that elite, we can just show up and wing it, which I don’t think is the truth.
And so, I think if we just change our mindset and realize that practice is a part of the game, check our ego, and realize that it is okay to be oneself. But the number one reason to be me is that everyone else has already taken, so I might as well be the best version of me.
So, I think it’s more of a leadership issue than a seller’s issue, because I think the leaders can really dramatically help increase sales when that authenticity shines.
Casey Wagonfield: Yeah. And felt like I’ve been able to be more authentic over the years as I just stopped caring what people thought about me. You like me or you don’t. But I’m still professional.
I think one of the better posts that I’ve had on LinkedIn this year is me on vacation with my family wearing a Buc-ee onesie on the beach, talking about: This is why I go to work every day. This is who I do it for.
But people want to see real people. They want to see you for you, not just somebody who’s overly professional. Were you ever like that throughout the beginning of your sales career, over-polished or something like that?
Casey Jacox: I was the oversharer. My wife still jokes. She goes, “Your gift is saying the most inappropriate, weird, totally out of bounds comment, yet it comes across as socially acceptable by your tone.” And that sounds like a bad skill to have. But to me, I think it’s just be yourself.
For example, I have a client right now. He broke his arm rollerblading. I go, “Have you told anybody that?” He’s like, “No.”
I go, “I would! First, not many people rollerblade anymore. In 1985, they did. And two: You did it, and you actually broke your arm. You’re going to be remembered as the rollerblading arm guy.
Be memorable. If someone said, “Hey, Case, how’s your weekend going?” “My weekend’s great. My daughter just committed to play college basketball where I played football in college, and I’m super fired up about it.” There’s a connection. We’re going to talk about something with somebody.
It has nothing to do with the sale, what we’re doing. When we have commonality, that leads to rapport, which leads to trust. You increase the chance of doing business with somebody because there’s a real relationship being built.
Rob Geist: Casey, in staffing, there’s a lot of pressure to feel like an expert. What advice do you give to people to admit you don’t know something, without losing credibility with your prospect?
Casey Jacox: Well, the story that comes to mind, Rob, is when I was at the end of my corporate career and was meeting with a client who challenged me because he thought I should know a lot more about his business. And I said, “With all due respect, Mr. and Mrs. Client, that’s not my job. My job is to give you access to talent who you don’t know where they exist. I’m never going to come here to tell you that you know your business way better than me.”
Now, if you want to judge me because I don’t know your business as well as you, then I’m always going to lose. But if you want to judge me by how well I give you access to talent who you don’t know where they exist, better than my competitors, that’s what I want to be judged on. And that was, I’d say, my mic drop moment, where there was some silence.
But he looked at me, he was like, “Hmm, that’s fair”. So, I think in these situations, it’s a dangerous place to go for salespeople when you try to tell your client that you know their business better than they do, because you don’t, unless you’ve sat in the seat and you’ve done it.
For me, when you use voice inflection, tone, and genuine curiosity as your strengths – and show people that you truly want to learn about them, their business, and their why – they can sense that authenticity. And when people know you’re being real in how you communicate and show up, they’re more likely to give you grace.
At least, we’ll hopefully navigate that challenge.
Rob Geist: Absolutely. And in the last chapter of the book, you talk about how success takes time, and you have to be patient and persistent. I know we talked about this a little bit prior, but what’s the line between being persistent and being a pest?
One of Casey’s favorite one-liners is: I followed up so much, they’re going to ask for a restraining order. So, give us the line on that.
Casey Jacox: So, I like to put people in buckets when I’m following up. If I’m going to be really persistent, I need to prove to myself that they would use our services.
So, for example, staffing, I’m going to prove that a recruiter talked to a candidate, that he or she worked at this company, and they’re already using my competitor, or my neighbor told me that this person would use our services. So, somehow, I can prove they use our services. If I can’t, then maybe I’m not going to follow up with them as much in the short term.
Again, my follow-up is always led by them, by the client. And if I’m going to ask the right questions, that’s going to make my follow-up shorter. But I think follow-up can be really, really transactional, which is everything I don’t teach. So, make sure you realize when you are following up that every word matters, every voicemail matters, every LinkedIn post matters, every comment matters… And is it helping you get to that next opportunity, however you’re going to work with that person?
And I think if you don’t slow down to really think about what is this activity I’m doing, and if it’s helping me or is it hurting me. But I think if there’s one simple takeaway on follow-up: Just make it the client’s idea.
Ask them when it would be a good time for them to follow up. If they say never, that’s probably not going to be a good contact in the first place. But if they give you, “Hey, call me in two months.” Well, at least that gives you something to prove that you listened and you follow up, which are two skill sets that most salespeople are not good at, that you’re already going to show you’re better.
Casey Wagonfield: So, Casey, before we wrap this up, we’re going to do something a little different this episode for the next minute, which you inspired me to do. So, I thought this was a really fun idea that you do on your podcast. We’ve got a few questions. We’re going to rapid-fire these questions. You can just fire back your rapid-fire answers just to give people a little bit more insight into Casey Jacox
So, are you ready?
Casey Jacox: Let’s go.
Casey Wagonfield: All right. First concert you ever went to?
Casey Jacox: Garth Brooks.
Casey Wagonfield: Nice. If you had a walk-up song, what would it be?
Casey Jacox: Welcome to the Jungle.
Casey Wagonfield: Beach or mountain getaway?
Casey Jacox: Beach.
Casey Wagonfield: Favorite guilty pleasure snack?
Casey Jacox: Ice cream.
Casey Wagonfield: If you could instantly learn any skill, what would it be?
Casey Jacox: Piano.
Casey Wagonfield: Favorite sports team and player of all time?
Casey Jacox: Wow! It’s a tie. All things Seattle. Favorite athlete of all time? Ken Griffey, Jr.
Casey Wagonfield: Good answer. One word to describe your selling style?
Casey Jacox: Curious.
Casey Wagonfield: MJ or LeBron?
Casey Jacox: Ooh, I’ve gone back and forth on this one. I’m going to say, LeBron.
Casey Wagonfield: I did not expect you to be a LeBron guy, to be honest. I respect it, though.
Casey Jacox: I go back and forth. I go, I, I literally have argued for both sides. and I might change my mind again.
Rob Geist: Fair. Well, with the exception of that last answer, Casey, this has been great stuff. We really appreciate you coming on with us and sharing the principles behind Win the Relationship, Not the Deal. But before we let you go, tell our listeners where they can learn more about the work you’re doing with staffing agencies, and of course, where they can find your podcast, The Quarterback Dadcast.
Casey Jacox: Yep. Thanks for asking. So, the best way to find the book is on Amazon. You can get it on Audible, you can get it on Kindle, you can get it in paperback. I narrated the Audible myself.
The best way to find me is also on LinkedIn. I’m very active on LinkedIn. I love connecting with people. The work I’m doing now for staffing companies, you can learn, it’s mainly for staffing guys, but it’s also for other companies as well. My website is CaseyJacox.com. The work I do is around mindset sales, sales leadership performance, best habits, and best practices that I’ve seen have a lot of success over time.
If you’re a dad or a mom, but you want to check out my podcast, the Quarterback Dadcast, episodes come out every Thursday morning, wherever you find your podcasts: Apple, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio.
My goal is to get dads to really slow down to realize that what we do matters, and realize that the more we can be humble, vulnerable, and curious as dads, it’s going to help create more humble, vulnerable kids, and better cultures, whether it’s in the workplace or the home.
So that’s me. I encourage people to reach out. I love connecting with other people, and I love opening other doors for people.
Casey Wagonfield: Yeah, and I highly recommend that anybody in staffing go grab his book.
I’ve got a physical copy and the Audible version. I listen to it in the commute, and you’ve serenaded me for hours in my car, reading your book to me. And if you’d like to learn more about simple VMs and how you can partner with us to win relationships with your clients and prospects, visit us@simplevms.com or connect with us on LinkedIn.
Thanks, everybody, for hanging out with us today. This is Staffing Made Simple. Until next time, go build some real relationships and keep it simple.
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